It’s an interesting thing, being a lady on the internet. It is a really great, supportive place to find folks to cheer you on, to have great conversations, and to form communities. On the other hand, people sometimes feel really goddamn entitled to your time/attention/sexuality, just ’cause. This is the (hopefully understandable) reason I sometimes ask that conversations stay in the public realm on Twitter, hesitate to give out my email/personal details, and generally give guys (even ones who have not given me any provocation) the side-eye when they ask about taking an internet conversation private. In my experience conversations like the one reproduced below are much rarer when the entire internet can see.
I want to be clear about something: this post isn’t directed at the sort of person you’re going to meet in a minute. If you find yourself in conversations like these, where your conversational partner is reacting like I did, I really hope you take something from this, but you aren’t who I’m talking to here. This post is for everyone who has told me that if I were just clearer about my boundaries that guys would back off or that women just aren’t clear enough about expressing their discomfort.
[NB: these are Twitter DM's so read from the bottom of the image up.]
To be clear, this conversation moved to DM’s after a few @’s back and forth about movies. He asked and I didn’t want to clog up feeds talking about how good the new Batgirl is (THE BEST), so I agreed. In reading this first exchange you may think I was being a little touchy, reading too much into things, but my experience has shown that it is much better to err on the side of caution in these things, particularly since people so love to use that line about women expecting people to read minds about boundaries.
(Ladies, I bet you know what comes next.)
What I look like & my relationship status: TOTALLY RELEVANT TO GAME DESIGN.
What Internet Dude Wants: 3, Boundaries: 0
Now, here we run into something that is really extra not okay: not just ignoring my line but attempts to shame me because I don’t want to do what he wants. The implication here is pretty clearly that I am in favor of/like life being closed (what does that even mean?) because I won’t brook internet sexytalk. Uh, no, I just don’t know you dude.
Seriously. People I know and am comfortable with CANNOT GET ME TO STOP talking about sex. I overshare frequently. Hell, sometimes I overshare here, just read the archives.
So boy, that sure was some passive aggressive bullshit right there about not wanting to hear about how unattractive I find him (don’t worry, there’s more later!), I don’t ever remember saying those words. Not being comfortable with the flirting and shit has nothing to do with attractiveness and everything to do with you REPEATEDLY IGNORING WHEN I SAID NO. That’s called rape culture and it’s not okay.
This bit is particularly interesting to me. I thought the conversation was over given, you know, the whole “goodnight” bit, but I guess not? More passive aggressive behavior, some needling, some justifying, blah blah blah. At this point I’ve decided that responding is just egging him on so I let it be.
At which point he takes it back to @’s to just make extra sure I feel exactly how I have said I feel. I thought I was pretty clear?
Aaaaaand I’m a cunt who lead him on with all my talk about not being comfortable and a Twitter bio that acknowledges I have a sexuality. (People really need to find a better insult. I like cunts.)
So, hopefully this is very clearly some Not Okay behavior. What I want to talk about, though, is what it means for the well meaning advice of “just establish boundaries” and the like. Telling me that I’m just not being clear enough is not only a little paternalistic and patronizing, it assumes that the onus is on me to fend off creepy dudes rather than on dudes to avoid being creepy (NB: I am using gendered language here to speak to my experience, not because this is always how these situations break down).
It ignores the very clear reality that drawing clear boundaries is not only often not enough, it is likely to draw reprisals from the party whose entitled demands are being stymied. I got off easy, he just called me a bad word and deleted all our conversations (yay screenshots!), I’ve had threats of violence, other women have actually had folks follow through on those threats. Telling me to draw better lines ignores all those times when I dread the risks of saying no more than I dread the consequences of saying yes, when I feel like I’ll be hurt more if I say no than I will be if I say yes. It ignores the times when, for whatever reason, no isn’t an option.
It breaks down to this: I don’t just forget about the word no, if it’s available I’ve probably already used it. Talking to me about clear boundaries is saying that you’ve never had to worry about reprisals or had your no’s ignored enough to make them feel meaningless. I envy you, I seriously do, but you need to stop it, it’s insulting and unhelpful. Try telling people to respect boundaries and create non-threatening spaces instead.
I am sorry that this made me laugh. I am sorry because it caused you grief but I was laughing at what a jackass this guy was in thinking or pretending to think that his behavior was normal or okay. His stupidity know no bounds. I really am sorry you have to deal with people like this.
The great thing about the internet is you can meet some great people. The bad thing is you meet many more closet assholes. Thanks for sharing this.
While I agree with you if by “normal” you mean “acceptable” or even “tolerable” (which is likely what you mean), I understand it is unfortunately all too normal (as in common or widespread).
Fascinating, but also repugnant. One thing that stood out to me was the use of “sorry you feel that way”—that sort of non-apology is a total marker for me of someone who fundamentally Does Not Get It. As if the rest of the conversation didn’t make that clear. There’s something about that phrase that utterly denies the possibility of his own wrongdoing, and pretends to be kind, not very well.
Exactly. He’s not sorry he offended her, he’s sorry she isn’t having sex with him because of his *amazing* chat up. Nora is *SO* missing out. I think I’m gonna go gay for that dude.
Oh, wait. That was sarcasm.
Yup, this is a giant peeve of mine.
People, either apologize or don’t, none of this halfway passive aggressive bullshit.
Oh boy. I can totally relate. I hate that shit so hard. How many god damned times do I have to say “No,” “Fuck no,” “Fuck you,” “Go away before I mace you.”
Sometimes…
Someone should get on inventing Internet Pepper Spray, the block button isn’t painful enough.
Reading this is really sad, on a lot of levels, but on another level it makes me feel a little better about myself. As a guy, I can sometimes be hyper-sensitive about making women uncomfortable in any situation potentially perceived as romantic or sexual.
I’m not always good at reading people, and I’ve made a number of women uncomfortable by overstepping various boundaries over the years. I sometimes beat myself up for overstepping these boundaries, making unwanted advances.
It puts it all in perspective when I read stuff like this. The issue is when there’s a clear, unambiguous statement of “no” or “i’m not interested” or “leave me alone” or “that makes me uncomfortable”. I personally like it when women are direct with me like this…it saves my time and energy and keeps me from offending them more. It’s something I can be grateful to them for. (The worst thing, which I’ve gotten, and I don’t always handle very gracefully, is getting mixed signals of positive interest combined or followed by silent withdrawal or passive lack of interest).
I’m not sure the best way to deal with guys like this. My intuition would be to just tell them once, and when they persist, to just cut off the conversation and/or block them…why waste your time and energy? On a cultural level, I wish we could teach people at an early age…preferably during or before puberty…to be direct, and when someone is direct, to listen to them. I think if men could get into the place of appreciating and being grateful for the directness of communication of non-interest, it would really move things forward. Because it is something that is really wonderful. When you tell a guy no, it’s saving him a lot of time and energy if he really gets that message, and I think it’s good for both people involved.
Please, please don’t stop being “hyper-sensitive” to making women uncomfortable. Odds are, given the culturally accepted level of sensitivity to that sort of thing (zero), you’re right on track. Frankly, it is better to be too aware of your position in this sort of thing than not aware enough.
This should not be read as an “Oh, well, I’m not so bad after all” piece (and if you are not taking it that way, I sincerely apologize for misreading you). Odds are boundaries are being drawn, you may just be missing them, or not giving them enough credence. As a rule of thumb, if she has not broached sexiness as a topic just leave it the fuck alone.
The issue is when any sort of no or boundary is expressed and it is ignored, not just explicit, verbal ones.To reiterate a point from my post: the onus should not be on women to tell people not to be creeps after they have started, it should be on people to not be creeps in the first place. If you have been a creep your best course of action is a sincere and unequivocal apology.
I could unpack the reasons why women sometimes react with “mixed signals” (THEY ARE PROBABLY NOT MIXED), but there is the internet for that. Suffice it to say that men seem to have a tendency to misread women’s gestures as signs of sexual interest when they are simply being friendly or polite and it is culturally acceptable to ignore signs a woman is disinterested other than a straight up “No, stop,” despite the fact that, normatively, that’s not how we communicate.
So, here’s the thing. You’re right that we need to change culture in such a way that directly saying no or laying out boundaries isn’t something that creates reprisal. But, more immediately feasible, we need to make it unacceptable to ignore signs (explicit or otherwise) that women are disinterested and change the default from “I should hit on her if she is not running away screaming” to “I should hit on her only if she has expressed she would enjoy it.”
“As a rule of thumb, if she has not broached sexiness as a topic just leave it the fuck alone. ”
women initiate all sexy talk, got it.
“I should hit on her only if she has expressed she would enjoy it.”
what does this sound like, typically? “please flirt with me that’d be rad” isn’t a phrase i’ve ever heard — and i’m not entirely unsuccessful with women.
if you want communication to be normal and involve signals, there are times when a dude is going to accidentally cross a boundary. wishing for a world where no guy is ever a ‘creep’ (flirtatious but unattractive) won’t help. what is most important is 1) communicating that he has crossed that boundary and 2) him apologizing/retreating as quickly the other way as possible.
the guy in the original post is a douche. but you’re being a little unrealistic in your expectations, here.
Boy, those are some pretty strawpeople you’ve got there.
My point is that, if a dude is trying to avoid seeming creepy, following the woman’s lead in a conversation re: sexiness isn’t an awful idea. Given, again, a desire to avoid seeming entitled and unpleasant, what is so awful about waiting for a conversational partner to broach the topic or, barring that, to bring up interest directly and respectfully.
Funny thing, I say almost exactly those words to people I want to flirt with. That expression (“Hey, I am down with flirting with you!”) can take a multitude of forms (both direct [like mine] and indirect), so I’m not sure I can give you a bright line here. When in doubt, respectfully ask.
I’m very much aware that boundaries are occasionally going to be crossed even with the best of intentions and I completely agree that it’s important to apologize once that comes to light (and frankly, the behavior you’re describing here is the antithesis of creepy in my book), but my point is that boundaries are very often articulated and ignored and that’s not alright.
I think it is my responsibility to expect better from myself, from the people I interact with, and from society. How else do we inspire change?
Are you saying that it’s unacceptable for men to express interest in a woman, until the woman has unambiguously expressed that she would enjoy it? I don’t think this is realistic. Communication necessarily involves a back-and-forth…and there is always a period of time where the communication is in the gray area before it moves into a clear “yes I’m interested” or “no i’m not” zone. I think the key is helping people, men and women, to conduct themselves gracefully and respectfully, both while in that gray area, and when out of it.
I want to clarify, I’m not reading your piece as being intended as an “I’m not so bad after all” message to men, I’m just saying that that was one of the many reactions I had to it. You said to stop being “hyper-sensitive” to making women uncomfortable, but two sentences later you said “it is better to be too aware of your position in this sort of thing than not aware enough.” — so…you’re assigning me (and men? all people in general?) a very difficult task of being aware enough without being hyper-sensitive. This is more easily said than done.
You said: “The issue is when any sort of no or boundary is expressed and it is ignored, not just explicit, verbal ones.”
This is tricky, because communication is really difficult. Some non-verbal boundaries are very clear…i.e. someone tries to touch someone, and the person moves their hand away, or actively stops the touch. But often, it’s not clear like that. I’ve also been in a lot of situations where a person very definitely has expressed interest in me, but their non-verbal signals seemed cautious and reserved, because they were nervous or inexperienced. Keep in mind that there’s also a deeply-embedded cultural stereotype for women to be in a more passive role, and this just makes it harder for men to read women effectively, because in most situations, the bulk of the burden for taking initiative is placed on the man.
And it’s also a reality that, for whatever reasons (innate, biological, or cultural conditioning, probably both), men tend to be less good at reading subtle cues than women. So, there is a fairly large gray area in which women think they are being clear, and the men think they are not. Furthermore, being clear isn’t an either-or-thing. In most situations, when things aren’t explicitly spelled out, all people read are tendencies…hmm…”Is she flirting? She seems like she MIGHT be flirting, but I can’t tell.”
I think most people, in hindsight, realize what signals people are trying to send–but it’s usually only the end result of how a situation played out that gives us this hindsight. And there’s another problem here: in the moment…feelings of sexual interest, romantic feelings, or all sorts of other feelings can cloud things. Men are very emotional creatures, contrary to what our culture sometimes suggests. And their judgment is clouded by these emotions. And women definitely experience this as well…I’ve been in numerous situations where women have misread signals that I thought were very clear. (Including having friendliness interpreted as romantic interest.)
In my opinion, directness in communication is the best way out of this conundrum, rather than some expectation that the other party get better at reading things. The problem in the twitter conversation wasn’t that the guy tried to flirt…the problem was that he did not stop when told no, and got progressively ruder and nastier when he was repeatedly told no.
Thanks so much for sharing this, I read it right after reading To My Someday Daughter (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html), something every guy like that should read and internalize.
Try taking the word kinky out of your bio and you may have better luck avoiding jerks on the internet
Wow, really? That whooshing sound was the point sailing right over your head, my anonymous friend.
See my reply below.
Yeah, she was today asking for it, amirite? It’s astonishing that in the year 2011 there are still idiots like you around who haven’t figured this stuff out.
Try removing the word “kinky” from your bio and it may help you to avoid internet pests.
You and Anonymous are missing the point – the guy violated her clearly stated boundaries. The word ‘kinky’ in her bio does not imply permission to ignore those boundaries. Is that so difficult to understand?
Victim-blaming much? No matter what a person has in their bio, it in no way excuses some douche from acting like a douche. What you said might look true at first glance, on a very superficial level, but in point of fact it’s not even relevant; just identifying as a woman on the internet is a sufficient condition as far as the jerks are concerned. And there are plenty of jerks.
Just saying, unfortunately, the word “kinky” can be an attractant for internet assholes. Doesn’t make it right. But some over- testosteroned boys are going to react to the word “kinky” as an excuse to be jerks. If it were me, and I wanted to avoid jerks, I would not state at the outset that I was kinky. This is the world we live in and it is chock full of boy/men who don’t understand or respect the word “no”. If just identifying as a woman is enough to encourage the jerks, why make it worse by identifying as a “kinky” woman.?
Seems to me she decided to identify herself in the way she believes best represents who she is. I suspect the author has some tolerance for people misreading that. Her point is that once she’s been misread and she *clarifies* that misconception (multiple times) and the other party continues to play the fool, you blaming her doesn’t help and only throws salt on her wound. She knows the guys a jerk.
How come you have to act like a jerk, too?
I’m not blaming her. I’ve raised two daughters in this male dominated world and am well acquainted with what women have to put up with. From dealing with guys who wouldn’t take no for an answer on dates, leaving them in tears, to being harassed for their attire, to entering the job market with outstanding college GPAs and losing jobs to men who barely squeaked through school, to being paid less than their male peers who can’t hold a candle to them. I’ve always encouraged them to stand up for themselves, to be strong, and to be just who they are. I would also advise them that if they describe themselves as “kinky” on an internet bio because that best represents who they think they are, they should expect to attract just the kind of basement dwellers who won’t respect any
boundaries. Does that really qualify me for jerk status?
I get what you’re saying, and I don’t quite think you’re a jerk, honestly; I just think you’re amongst those still stuck in “advise the victim how not to be a victim” mode, where it’s obvious that many here are tired of all the advice being for women who have been inappropriately approached, and instead feel that those who DO the inappropriate approaching should be counseled or advised NOT to.
It’s the epitome of unfairness for us to be expected not to be who we are, or style ourselves the way we want, else people who respond to that poorly are somehow absolved of their wrongdoing. It’s dangerous to spread this sentiment that aggressors like this guy have some sort of slavish impulse to act as they do; the message we all need to send them is that they DO have control over how they act, and failure to control it will not be tolerated — they will be called out, exposed, perhaps even shamed if they don’t put a rein on it. It isn’t fair to expect one group of people to alter everything about how they act, dress or talk because the other group (be they in the majority or the minority) can’t be expected to control themselves.
If that’s not “the world we live in”, then I consider blogs like this attempts to CHANGE that world.
Point taken. She should be free to write whatever she wants in her bio without fear of getting “accosted” on the internet. And I suppose my opinion was awful close to being the equivalent of saying “she got what she deserved because of the way she was dressed”. If you are going to change the world this is an excellent way to start. Major social changes have occurred just during my lifetime.
My daughters have given me plenty of eyerolls and accused me of being over-protective (I equipped them both with keychain bottles of mace when they were teens), but they never have called me a jerk, at least when I was in the room.
There are reasons why a person might want to publicly admit to being kinky. It’s an identification with a particular community, and it’s a way of being publicly ‘out’, thereby doing ones part to improve the acceptance of particular behaviors by the mainstream.
So it’s not like she wouldn’t lose anything by taking that out of her profile. Maybe she’d rather not let her behavior be dictated by the jerks who don’t understand boundaries.
I’m impressed with your patience, although I always worry about that sort of thing being a hangover from the “nice girls don’t make a fuss” education that I made damn sure my daughters didn’t get.
Say “No” clearly and firmly, don’t answer any more questions (yes I know, not easy to do), and if he still bugs you, it’s “block and report” for stalking.
It probably wouldn’t have done any good here, but it might have made the conversation shorter. What an arsehole.
“I want to be a father”, “are you taken?”… Christ. Somebody enroll this creeper in a class on life, please. At some point I was kind of waiting for him to say something like “hey do you know how to iron shirts? what about your cooking, are you good at that?”
Your “go away” statements were clear, but then you kept on responding to his remarks and innuendos anyway. He was clearly wrong, but why did you keep on responding, even answering his specific questions about how you feel about monogamy, etc.?
Because relationship structures and non-monogamy are things I genuinely enjoy talking about, from an intellectual perspective. That’s where I hoped the conversation was going.
Also, why does it matter?
I disagree with everything he did to try and get the hookup as it were. However, I do think that you stated at one point you were interested in staright up nerdy conversation that I think was about comic books originally. I think he stepped over the line long before you cut him off.
Not sure you could have done anything different that would have stopped his hatred coming out. I personally think I would have cut him off at free love and being taken comments but I wasn’t there and feeling your feelings.
I think we need to realize that no matter how much we, as post event observers, try to read into a text dialogue we cannot know how it made you feel.
It made you unconmfortable and that was clear. Trying to analyze if you had the right to feel that way is pointless and frankly a bit insulting as well.
I hate posting as anonymous but the wordpress login aint working for me. My WP is Ravensworthpress and I posted the very FIRST comment on the page as well.
I appreciate your blog as it continues to make me think about my own actions and learn.
Looking down his Twitter feed @ing women with small talk seems to be his MO. Just really pathetic.
Here by way of Pharyngula, with one comment and one question.
The comment is that even in the “kinky” community this sort of behavior isn’t OK. Even if you’re in a chatroom on a BDSM website, where the conversations are very often about sex, this isn’t acceptable. Just because people are interested in sex and kink, and are talking about sex and kink in a general sense, it doesn’t mean they are interested in talking about or doing anything with YOU.
The question is: How good is the new Batgirl really? I haven’t read it since the Cassandra Cain days.
SO GOOD.
I love the art, I love the writing. A someone who’s been through trauma it really hit close to home in a really good way.
So, like are you free tonight for coffee? Just asking since you’ve apparently broken up with this guy.
Dr. Bryan [REDACTED], does your wife know you’re hitting on other women on the internet, and does [REDACTED] know you’re fine with doing so after a woman says she’s tired of people feeling “really goddamn entitled to your time/attention/sexuality, just ’cause”? Just asking since you’re doing it more anonymously than you usually comment.
I think that was meant to be humorous, actually. Of course, with people on the internet, you can never assume the worst. You can try, certainly, but then they’ll always surprise you, and sink just a bit further.
Or maybe I’m just feeling a tad pessimistic.
On the other hand, the fact that I know who he is might be some kind of hint that I know what I’m talking about.
I’ve removed the details you posted Stephanie.
If I may ask a question without being crucified:
Here we have two people talking at cross purposes. He is looking to flirt and maybe hook up, you are looking to talk comic books and game design. So once you realized this, why not just end the conversation? Let’s be clear, you tried to shame him first.
No, she politely let him know she wasn’t comfortable with being hit on, first, and then he ignored that, and once she realised he was going to ignore the boundary she had set, then she chose to communicate strongly that his behavior wasn’t okay, rather than just end the conversation.
Are you complaining that some guy got shamed for ignoring boundaries? Really?
Not to mention she actually ended the conversation, telling the guy to go away and proceeding to ignoring him, as shown by the last few comments in which the guy is the only one talking.
I actually agree with you. I frequently get hit on online by such creepers, but, honestly, I don’t understand why she continued the interaction as long as she did rather then just ending it and moving on. Her comments to him came off as a bit inflammatory to me. Yeah, he was out of line, but still….she could’ve handled it better as well. Shaming him like that only served to personally offend him and cause him to lash out. He didn’t learn anything, he’ll forever just think her a cunt for it. At least if she had just stopped talking to him immediately when he didn’t get that she didn’t want to flirt he might’ve actually taken a moment for introspection.
You may have noticed that not talking to him is what contributed to me getting called a cunt. You’re getting fairly close to a tone argument here.
I actually think this comment is insightful. There is a bit of sarcasm and perhaps hostile intentions in her responses as well, evident from the start of the conversation. I want to clarify though…I’m not saying this excuses the guy’s behavior…it absolutely does not.
But if you really want to help men to learn how to treat women more respectfully, I think treating him more respectfully, which would involve being direct and ending the conversation quickly, would have probably made it more likely for him to actually listen, and learn something.
See my comment to Anonymous above re: continuing the conversation as well as the excellent responses from other commenters above.
I’m not sure how I shamed him, other than pointing out some very clearly problematic behavior. Given the amount of times I’ve been told that if women don’t speak up about these things how can people ever know how to change, I don’t know that there’s any way to win here (see: tone argument). If someone thinks I’m a cunt for calling them on their entitled asshattery then I’m ultimately pretty alright with that.
What was your intention in continuing the conversation?
Were you just angry at him and expressing that, or, were you seeing the value in him as a human being, and did you genuinely want to communicate some insight that would help him to grow as a person? There’s a big difference between these things, and the effect they have on a person…it’s not about male or female, or about sexual situations…it’s a nearly universal feature of human conflicts.
I think asking this question is often useful. If you are no longer seeing the value in someone as a human being I think it is always good to cut off the conversation, because anything you say or do from that point onward is simply likely to hurt them in ways that will make them more likely to hurt others in the future.
Seemingly another example of the poor, suffering “Nice Guy”. So often misinterpreted and unappreciated. They want women to be clear and concise, but when spoken to directly still reveal the ugly self-victimization beneath the thin surface layer.
Haha…I think it is a huge stretch to interpret this guy’s behavior as “nice”.
Clearly, if you would simply wear a burqa at all times and didn’t talk to anyone on the internets, this would never happen.
Dunno the comment rules here and I hope this doesn’t break them… but
Whenever I see some guy ask “what do you look like?” in a chat, I read that as an alternative way of saying “I’ve got my dick out and want a mental image to jerk it to.”
I find it very creepy, but far more than that, just plain pathetic. I mean seriously, desperately, cluelessly pathetic.
shows people can just be as perverted with small talk too. Good post here. I like how people should be wary and take caution with others they do not know.
http://photogirl23.wordpress.com
You could make a pretty quick flow chart for guys like this.
Step 1: Find someone you find interesting
Step 2: Make a non-committal attempt to broach sexuality.
Does she respond positively?
Yes: This is carte blanche to do whatever you want, if she stops you at any point she’s a cock tease.
No: have you tried broaching the subject of open relationships?
Yes: Have you tried to shame her as someone sexually inhibited?
Yes: Have you tried to tell her she is over reacting?
Yes: Insult her directly
Someone like this doesn’t care about boundaries. He has already stated his intention and your boundaries are in conflict with his desires so in his head, it’s you who is in the wrong.
As rude and disrespectful as this guy’s behavior is, I think this is an oversimplification.
I think it’s dangerous and not particularly empowering to characterize people as having uniformly bad intentions like this. Ultimately, do we care about reaching men like this, and changing their behavior? Or do we just want to demonize them? Demonizing them is not going to change their behavior.
Personally, what I want out of life is to change the behavior of people like this, to encourage them to treat women, and all others, with respect, at all times, as much as possible.
There’s probably a lot going on in this guy’s head. Who knows what it is? But the point is, if you don’t know him, you don’t know what his thought process is. So don’t claim to understand it. His behavior was disrespectful and insulting. But this does not mean he always acts this way, or that he will always act this way in the future. If you believe that such people’s behavior is always going to be bad, then you give up your own power in the situation, the power to influence others in positive ways. And isn’t that what we really want here?
I don’t know everything in this man’s head but I have seen this same scenario play out many times before. It doesn’t really matter to me what his motive is. If you are someone who cannot be politely asked to stop doing something that is making someone else uncomfortable, you are acting like an ass. You might be a lovely person in all other respects but when someone asks you to stop something and you don’t that’s just a shitty way to be and it’s not really my responsibility to put you at ease about it.
If that individual were to ask me why what they did upset me, I’d be happy to have a level headed and reasonable discussion about it but I think when the person hits the point that he’s flipping through his lexicon for what he believes to be the most demeaning insult he can muster, he’s not really open to a respectful conversation. That ship has sailed.
At times I really do wonder what it would like to be a hot attractive woman. I thrive on/love positive attention. I contemplate that societal “norms” dictate that the male gender is expected to initiate most everything and only after the male gender has initiated may the female gender respond or express anything.. Conversely societal “norms” more often then not dictate that the female of the gender should not initiate conversation or express anything unless directly requested to do so by the male gender. Obviously society is slowly evolving to a much more equal terms(or at least I hope it is), but I still wonder what it would be like to be in the other shoes.
But holy shit, after reading this I am reminded how much easier/more pleasant it is being a guy. Being male I (perhaps naively) never really need to worry about creepy/pervy/asshat people randomly initiating conversations(or worse) with me. It happens occasionally but only once in a blue moon(on a side note, blue moons actually aren’t that rare despite this saying).
Often, in these conversations, people mistakenly make what I call the “golden rule fallacy.” In essence, they think “well *I* would like that, therefore your concern is moot.
So I try to compare it to something gender neutral. It would be great to be amazingly rich. It would be lovely to never have to worry about money again. But imagine if every time you interacted with someone, you had to worry they’d hit you up for cash. Some people just want to talk about the weather, or that great movie they just saw, or that a new Trader Joe’s opening up on 5th, but then there’s the group of people who start off nice enough but start prodding you to donate or invest in their new idea. You say, “um, I’m a little uncomfortable discussing money with a stranger, but about that thing we were talking about before then…” If they then want nothing to do with you when you persistently insist on not discussing money, you walk away feeling kind of like that’s all you are seen for.
It’s not that having money is bad, it’s not even that you don’t want to be philanthropic or spend money on something you are interested in, it’s that you resent being treated like your money is the only thing the other person was interested or saw in you and that in every interaction you have to be leery that this person is only talking to you to hit you up for money.
Best analogy for that “well, *I’d* like it”: https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/
start at “Imagine, if you will, a small house”
Yes! I think it’s insightful that the golden rule doesn’t work well in these situations!
People are different, and want different things, so I think we need a more general framework of respect, asking and listening to what people want and what their boundaries are, and respecting those boundaries.
You like cunts? I like cunts, too! Clearly we have something in common. People who don’t like cunts are gay (or straight women). Lets talk about your cunt, now. Clearly your ability to receive communication from me is the same as consent.
Hold up?
You mean to say, that not every SINGLE person who talks to me about anything, is NOT flirting right off the bat?
I don’t believe it.
Jack Harkness doesn’t believe it either.
However this would explain why co-workers are afraid to say good morning.
oh god. I should never read the comments – but your answers to them are inspiring.
Sorry to dig up a zombie post, but I just found you today!
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exaggerated with sumo suits could best be utilised.
His level of safety and precautions and more importantly regulations.
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